Interview: Director Darren Lynn Bousman on Returning to the SAW-iverse for SPIRAL, How This Film Separates Itself from the SAW Franchise and More

It’s been nearly 15 years since the last time Darren Lynn Bousman was holding the directorial reins of a Saw film. And now he’s back at the helm of this latest entry, Spiral, where things are very different, both for him and for the Twisted Pictures franchise as well. While not a continuation of the John Kramer mythology that was at the center of the first eight Saw movies, Spiral is still very much made with Jigsaw’s enduring legacy in mind, but just expanding his ideology in new ways now that his character has been dead for well over a decade.

Recently, Daily Dead had the opportunity to speak with Bousman about his involvement in Spiral and returning to the Saw family after all these years. During our chat, he also provided us with some insight into the inspirations behind Spiral’s traps, working with his cast, the unfortunate timeliness of Spiral’s core message about police corruption, and why it was necessary to move on from the original Saw storylines for this film in particular. And just because this writer couldn’t help but get a little geeky, I also asked him about whether or not he could see Hoffman’s storyline from the original Saw series getting wrapped up in the future as well.

Look for Spiral: From the Book of Saw everywhere in theaters this weekend, courtesy of Lionsgate.

I think it's safe to say that while this is in the spirit of the Saw series, Spiral also takes some bold steps away from that mythology all the same. For you, as being somebody who was so integral to how the Saw series evolved, especially in 2 through 4 as we watched the Saw mythology really come together. Was it freeing for you to be able to come back into this and work within the constructs of Saw, but do something different this time?

Darren Lynn Bousman: I think the first thing that we did, Chris Rock and then the two writers, Josh Stolberg and Pete Goldfinger, is we tried to define what Spiral was. And our take on it was that it's not a sequel, it's not a reboot, it's not a re-imagination. It is a standalone story that happens to exist in the same universe in which Saw was real. So when you define it like that, you have to ask yourself, “What are the rules?” And so, for us, the rules were that Jigsaw was real, all the crimes he committed in the previous films happened, but it's not that movie. New detectives, new killer, but knowing that our core fan base was the Saw fan base, we couldn't just abandon everything. We had to bring things with us. So then it became, “What do we bring with us?”

Well, for me, the most iconic thing of the Saw franchise is Tobin Bell and Billy the Puppet. So those are the first two things I cut and it was a very hard decision, because I think there was a world in which Tobin Bell existed in this movie. But I think if we did that, it would be doing a disservice to this film and the previous Saw films. Saw 1 through 8 became so complicatedly dense with mythology and interwoven storylines and flashbacks, and flashbacks within flashbacks. I didn't want to hinder this movie or weigh it down with previous things you had to know. So the first very hard conversation is, “This is going to stand on its own. It is not tied into the first eight films like that.” So while this is the ninth film of the Saw franchise, it is not Saw 9. Saw 9 could still exist. This just happens to be the ninth Saw movie we've made.

So once we knew that, we said, "Okay, what do we take with us?" And so, for me, one of the first things was, I want Charlie Clouser. I think that is a familiarity the audiences will immediately understand and hear, is the Charlie Clouser score. Then after Charlie Clouser, it was, “We're bringing the traps back.” So the traps are going to come back. But now there's a hole, there's no iconic villain. So what do you do with that? Which then the idea that I sold the producers on really late in the game, I want to say two weeks before we started filming, was the puppet. I really wanted there to be a new puppet to also help make this its own thing. And so, I actually had an artist draw out what the puppet would look like, and we got approval on it, and we quickly manufactured the puppet and that's how this whole thing worked. It started with what we had to cut and what we could bring with us to make sure this was completely unique in that respect.

Do you also feel like by making that decision that you’re opening everything up for new audiences? There are the Saw diehards like me out there, but I’m sure there are people who otherwise feel like all that mythology from the other movies is daunting to try and make it through before seeing Spiral. 

Darren Lynn Bousman: Yeah, the hope is that a new audience will find this movie, too. When you put Chris Rock and Samuel L. Jackson in a movie, you're broadening the potential reach. And so what we didn't want to do is have someone that may be interested in a Chris Rock movie be like, "I'm not going to spend eight or however many hours watching a bunch of old movies from the early 2000s." So we wanted to basically, I don't want to say sever ties with them, but sever ties with the Saw mythology, which means if you don't know any mythology, it doesn't matter. However, we want to reward those that understand the mythology. So there are numerous moments and lines and shout-outs in this film that will pay off if you've seen the previous eight films.

The one thing I'll just say is that this is the equivalent of what The Conjuring did with Annabelle: just because Annabelle exists, it does not invalidate The Conjuring. It just exists in that same world. So as a movie fan, as a fan of the Saw franchise, I hope they continue on with the John Kramer, Logan, Costas Mandylor/Hoffman storyline. This is just not that movie.

Because you are now a decade or so past where the official Saw franchise ended, and it’s been a few years since Jigsaw was released, was it a challenge at all to think of new and creative traps that fit where we are at today? I noticed some of the tech has been upgraded a little bit, but some of it still has that old, classic-y Saw trap feeling, too.

Darren Lynn Bousman: So one of the first ideas we had is Jigsaw, John Kramer, was an engineer. He had the ability and wherewithal to create complicated gadgetry. We wanted to try to give, and this is a weird thing that is very subtle, but we wanted there to be a different feel to who the new killer was through these new traps. So a lot of the traps are based on images we found from BDSM. Like the tongue trap, that came from images in a BDSM board. The same thing with the harness that holds up Sam Jackson, which has been in the trailer, so it’s not a spoiler. Or even the mesh that's used in the finger traps setup.

We tried to do subtle things to push it in a different direction. But, to me, part of my issue with the last few films was how complicated the traps got, how almost sci-fi they were, whether it be laser beams or a garbage disposal compactor thing. I was just like, "No, they need to go back to a little more simple." That's why I think some of the most effective traps are the simple ones, whether it be the needle pit or, in this one, the wax trap. I think that's one of my favorite ones from this film, just because it's so simplistic.

When you're doing a movie like this and you're taking on the concept of police corruption, I'm sure when you guys were making this back in 2019, it was timely, but now it unfortunately feels even more timely. Is it an interesting experience for you to be able to have a movie like this, where it's entertaining and it's fun and it's thrilling, but it's really saying something as well, in terms of the problems we're having with the police throughout the country?

Darren Lynn Bousman: You know what, it's sad that you're saying this, because it's true, and it's even sadder that it was a big deal back then in 2019 and now here we are in 2021, and we're still reading the news and seeing these problems everywhere. I don't think anyone set out to make a political film or necessarily political message. I think what we do is we look at, I don't want to say stereotypes, but we look at archetypes. The drug addict, the abuser that's been used throughout the Saw movies. And the corrupt cop, I mean, that is something that we've seen again and again and again. I think that when Josh and Pete constructed the story, one of the ideas was, “How do we further Jigsaw's message?” And Jigsaw's message was reforming an individual, taking a flawed individual that did not appreciate their life, holding a mirror up to their face in changing that individual.

So what's the progression of that message? And in our mind it was reforming an institution. So imagine taking two, three, four people out of an institution, and when you put them through this, it sends a message to the entire institution, not just those four people, but everyone involved in that institution. We thought that was an interesting idea. And I don't think any of us could have realized then what would happen just a few months later and continues to be happening today.

Let’s talk about your cast for a moment. Of course, there are Chris Rock and Samuel L. Jackson, who were great, and I really liked Max [Minghella], too. But I have to shout-out Marisol [Nichols], who became one of my favorite parts in the movie. She really comes in like a storm and I absolutely loved her. 

Darren Lynn Bousman: What I love about Marisol so much is that it would have been very easy to cast the traditional badass male sergeant for this role. But then we had this idea of, “What if we went with a female actor for that character?” And then I saw Marisol, and I was like, "Could she do this?" Then she shows up on set and she was a ball-busting, take no bullshit, just total badass presence, and I loved that. And she frightened me [laughs]. But I agree, I think Marisol is fantastic in the movie. And it was amazing all around. I mean, listen, to just do a press day with Chris Rock, whoever thought those words would come out of my mouth? It's insane. And more importantly, to have Chris referencing something I wrote, because he talks about Saw II a lot and his fascination with Saw II, and it's just insane that one of the world's greatest living comedians is talking about stuff he liked about a movie that I made, it just doesn't seem real.

We talked about you coming back into the Saw fold and moving things forward in this world, but I’m curious if there were challenges for you as well? 

Darren Lynn Bousman: It is only cool for me if it works. If it doesn't work, it's not cool [laughs]. If they come out on Saturday morning and they're like, "Hey, congratulations, Darren, you made 25 cents at the box office," I never wanted to be the guy to jump the shark. I never wanted to be the guy to derail the Saw franchise. That's why I left after Saw IV. I was like, "I had three number-one hits. There's nowhere to go from this point. There's nowhere to go." So to come back in at this point, yeah, there was a risk and it was scary, but it was also exhilarating and exciting as well. So just the hope is that people are curious enough to understand that we have changed the Saw direction a little bit and give it a chance. Even if you may have given up after Saw III or Saw IV, we hope that you come back and see what we've done with it since then.

We're probably getting close on time, but I wanted to ask what has been your biggest takeaway from your experience working on this and how has Spiral changed you as a filmmaker?

Darren Lynn Bousman: For me, it's that you never know where you're going to be. You never know. Making Saw II back then, I was 24 years old. I never would've thought at 24 years old where I would be at 42 years old or that I would be working with the people that I'm working with now. And even now, I'm like, "Where's it going to be in 20 years? Am I going to be back doing Saw 19?" I always joke about that, but I mean, I would have said then, "Never in a million years." And I do think that today's message of Shem, who I'm going to shout-out to, because we got some tragic news today that a friend of both of ours died. But this is a guy that I was texting with two days ago. You never know what the future's going to be, and you've got to appreciate what you have and that’s tied back to Jigsaw's message where he wants you to appreciate your life because you never know what the future's going to hold for you.

So whether it’s me as a 24-year-old kid coming back to direct this movie now at this point in my life, or what we just went through with a very good friend of ours, I think that it's just realizing to live each moment and appreciate your life like Jigsaw's entire message from the first Saw through Jigsaw.

One last question. Because you mentioned Hoffman, I feel like his character is still this dangling thread out there. Plus, you mentioned Saw IX, do you think in a perfect world, if things go well with this and the Saw fan base gets passionate again about these films, do you think we could ever see Hoffman's story wrap up in some way? Because I personally do not think he's dead.

Darren Lynn Bousman: I mean, listen, I've got to preface this by saying that this is not a Lionsgate comment or a Twisted Pictures comment—this is a Darren Bousman fan comment. I will tell you, they don't give me any inside information. I read about everything, whether it be Deadline Hollywood or Daily Dead, I read it the same time everyone else does. So for me to answer that question, I would say that knowing them for years, that if the fandom continues and the people respond to Spiral, that there will be more Saws. And I think that could mean TV, or I think that can mean a continuation of the original saga as well as a sequel to this. I think that the sky's the limit as long as people come out and support it.

[Photo Credit: Above photo courtesy of Brooke Palmer / Lionsgate.]